Re: Pole Shifts vs Ice Ages (Revisited)

"John Shakespeare" wrote:
> Ian wrote:
<snip>
>>>> Finland, East of Scandinavia, does not have the same direct effect from
>>>> the Gulf stream, and may have extreme cold periods like Helsinki down
>>>> to -45 °C (~-50 °F) last winter, yet when spring comes, the snow goes.
>>>> The North Cape, Europe's northernmost point, is snow & ice free during
>>>> summer, and no ice building occurs in the area.
>>>
>>> Helsinki does not get -45C, and rarely gets to -30C.
>>
>> The official statistics from FMI only covers up to 1999, and states the
>> lowest temperature measured in Helsinki to be -34.3 °C. However, last
>> year was not typical, with extreme cold in large areas of the Nordic
>> region. According to my local sources, Helsinki had down to ~-45°C for
>> about a week last winter.
>
> Partly correct, partly incorrect. Your sources informed you correctly on
> the -34.3C figure, but misinformed you on the -45C figure. According to
> the Finnish Meteorological Institute, -34.3C is still the lowest
> temperature recorded in Helsinki. The winter of 1999 was exceptionally
> cold in the North of Finland, and produced the record low temperature
> _officially_ recorded in Finland: -51.5C, with unofficial measurements
> reaching about -55C in a few places in the far North.
> However, Helsinki did not experience a record low that year.

When checking with the FMI, they confirmed that the -34.3°C in Helsinki
still stands. The measured record low in 2000/2001 was in the village of
Pokka in Kittilä, -51.5°C. However, other more Eastern areas may have
experienced lower temperature down to -55°C as suggested.

a, Finland experiences some effects from the Gulf Stream, but not as much as
   the areas directly exposed to it. Those effects may be balanced off by
   the Easterly winds;
b, The winter 2000/2001 was extremely cold, but mostly in the North of
   Finland;
c, Never trust your friendly taxi driver.

(I occasionally get the chance to travel the Nordic region. An extremely
interesting area, from Finland's thousand lakes, Norway's sunken valleys
(i.e. fjords), Iceland's geothermal areas etc. If you ever travel between
the US & Europe, an Iceland stopover would be well invested time.
Unfortunately, Greenland is still on my list of islands to do.)

>>> Utsjoki and similar locations get a few days around -45C each year, and
>>> occasionally even colder. The Gulf stream carries a great deal of
>>> thermal energy towards Europe, enough to influence Finland. The
>>> mountains to the North also reduce the transport of cold air from the
>>> polar region towards Finland.

Whenever Finland experiences record colds, it is due to cold, dry air coming
in from the East. The high pressure polar night does the rest.

The mountains have little effect, as the cold air comes from the East. While
the record low in Pokka was -51.5, Karasjok in Finnmark had -51.4.

>>> You see, topography and circulation patterns in the ocean and atmosphere
>>> affect climate. Latitude is important, but is not the only factor.

True. Greenland's huge icecap is of course an important cooling factor of
the surrounding ocean due to the icebergs & the rivers with ice-cold melted
water going into the ocean.

>>>> The Greenland icecap contains 1/8th of the global ice mass or about 2.5
>>>> million cubic km. Europe's larges glacier, Vatnajökul on Iceland, just
>>>> south of the Arctic Circle, is a mere dwarf in comparison with its
>>>> 3.300 cubic km, and melting.
>>>>
>>>> As you yourself has pointed out, the cold climate as of Northern Europe
>>>> is not enough to build an icecap like the one on Greenland.
>>>>
>>>> Any ideas how it got there??
>>>
>>> The same way Finland got its ice cap.
>>
>> Which ice cap? Since when did Finland get an ice cap?? (This could be
>> fun...)
>>
>> Or are we now all of a sudden 10.500 years back when all of the Nordic
>> region was covered with ice? If so, one rather interesting question could
>> be why Siberia, today same latitude as Greenland, never was covered with

>> any ice cap??

Note: not addressed...

>>> A more instructive question would be why Greenland retained its ice
>>> cap long after the retreat of the other Northern ice caps. Hint:
>>> you'll find a good part of the answer in the circulation patterns of
>>> the arctic ocean, especially its inflows and outflows.

It's true that especially the Northeastern part of Greenland is subject to
the cold outflow. However, the Gulf Stream affects the whole area, and
smaller arms do go West of Iceland as well as into Davis Strait, balancing
off some of the cooling effect.

>> Like the Gulf stream's arm that passes between Iceland & Greenland? Or
>> the one going into Davis Strait, West of Greenland?
>
> Which does not reach the coast of Greenland, due to strong currents of
> colder polar water. In fact, the surface water near Greenland's East coast
> is colder than that near the West coast! The surface temperature around
> Greenland is below 4C for much of the West coast, while the section
> slightly above 4C calves most of the ice bergs. The surface ocean is below
> 2C for much of the Eastern coast of Greenland.
>
>>> If that's not enough of a hint, then think about why Ellesmere island,
>>> Devon island, and even Baffin island also have permanent ice caps.
>>
>> Cheating, cheating...
>
> Not at all. Please check the circulation patterns of arctic water. It
> explains why the Siberian islands and Wrangel island have comparatively
> small (or no) ice caps, despite being at latitudes comparable to Greenland
> and the Canadian arctic islands. It also partly explains why Greenland is
> rather colder than other places at similar latitudes.

But it doesn't address why Greenland got such a huge ice cap in the first
place, and why Siberia never did.

>> Greenland is about the size of continental Europe, stretching from far
>> South of the Arctic Circle almost to the North Pole. Ellesmere Island
>> is far North of the Arctic Circle, from about 77° to 82° North, Devon
>> Island at about 75°. Only Baffin Island stretches as far South as the
>> Arctic Circle, but has barely no ice at that latitude. The amount of ice
>> in general on Baffin Island is a drop in the ocean compared to Greenland.
>>
>> Where else ON THE ARCTIC CIRCLE do you find permanent ice of such volume
>> as on Greenland?
>
> On every body of land on the Arctic circle which is surrounded by surface
> water of 4C or lower. The surface water near the East coast of Greenland
> is below 2C for most of the year, and below 4C on much of the West coast.
> The surface water around Iceland and the extreme North of Norway does not
> go below 4C, and is above 8C for much of the year.

Factually true, but not addressing the issues.
a, Greenland's icecap itself is a significant factor in the cooling of the
   surface water around Greenland.
b, Why does Greenland have such huge amounts of ice? Why did it build there
   in the first place?
c, Is there an icecap buildup at the Arctic Circle today?

The attempts so far to explain the Ice Ages like the Frozen Earth & Fireball
scenarios are just too far out, IMO. Long time before I ever came across
ZetaTalk, it was obvious to me that there were just too many unexplained
factors concerning the previous climate changes etc. As Hapgood says in the
conclusion part, Remaining Problems: Future Research:
"I am conscious of the many problem that remain to be solved, especially
that of the mechanism of displacement". The one suggestion of the
centrifugal force of the ice cap don't impress me much. Planet X is the only
suggestion so far that makes sense, even though we may not like to face such
a challenge in our own lifetime.

Ian

PS.
Previous comments about interest vs. expertise hereby withdrawn, you have
done your research.

However, the text books should never be taken as telling the truth, the
whole truth and nothing but the truth. Just as the alternative literature,
the interesting parts from the text books are the facts stated. The theories
however are just that, theories, until proven correct.